I’ve raised enterprise capital earlier than, however understanding the nuances between crypto enterprise capital corporations and hedge funds was an amazing studying expertise. Ben runs a fund that invests in different funds, so he is aware of what’s up. This episode is useful to know the incentives of how each of those investor sorts (VCs and HFs) have fared over the previous 2 years and what lies forward.
Speaker #0
Cool. So to get began, are you able to clarify the various kinds of crypto funds, hedge funds versus enterprise capital versus every other form of buildings you see out there?
Speaker # 1
Yeah, thanks, Kerman. First, only a fast introduction of my title is Ben Jacobs. I am the managing accomplice of Scenius Capital.
Scenius Capital Is a fund to funds asset supervisor centered solely on blockchain and digital belongings Uh in 2021, we launched our first fund which is a fund of crypto native hedge funds Uh, and on the finish of this 12 months, we’re launching our second fund which is a fund of early stage rising supervisor for Uh enterprise capital funds so the best way you concentrate on Hedge funds is hedge funds are centered on executing buying and selling methods round dwell liquid tokens So all the similar buying and selling methods which can be accessible to conventional merchants and equities bonds Uh derivatives, and many others commodities all of these exist in crypto So there could also be a protracted biased discretionary elementary analysis pushed hedge fund technique The place the managing companions, the CIOs, the analysts, they’re evaluating which tokens, uh, have clear worth drivers to them and subsequently there is a dislocation between its present value And the place its value can go over x period of time That is one sort of technique that is known as lengthy bias.
There may very well be lengthy quick there may very well be Uh extra systematic the place it is simply in response to an algorithm then there’s additionally extra market impartial Low beta, that means much less tied to the market, um, or or or non directional methods the place they’re purely on the lookout for returns, no matter if the market goes up or down or sideways.
So. These usually, uh, are methods pursuing arbitrage, so it may very well be cross alternate arbitrage, it may very well be DeFi to CeFi arbitrage, uh, it may very well be staking, it may be, uh, liquidity provisioning, and many others. So there are a variety of various methods that hedge funds pursue, they usually all have completely different mandates.
The lengthy bias, discretionary, elementary analysis ones are extra so like Liquid VC. Um and among the different methods or so, uh, like true pure absolute return Making an attempt to only go up 15 plus % web per 12 months annualized So that is the hedge funds the enterprise and people are solely investing into dwell liquid tokens In order that they may very well be buying and selling round btc and eth they may very well be buying and selling sol They may very well be buying and selling any asset that is dwell and accessible on a DEX or a CEX the dc funds Usually have longer fund lives.
They sometimes have a ten 12 months fund life, a 3 12 months funding interval, 7 12 months harvest interval, and they’re investing into the businesses behind a few of essentially the most crucial Blockchain, uh, and digital belongings, protocols or, um, applied sciences. So, you possibly can see one thing like, who had been the early buyers in Eigenlayer, or who had been the early buyers in Optimism.
Previous to any of those tasks having tokens, there was sometimes a founding staff that got here to market with an concept of one thing they needed to construct. They went to the enterprise capitalists, they raised cash at X valuation, after which quite a few VCs participated. After which there’s sequential rounds seed collection solutions be, uh, till there’s in the end a liquidity occasion.
Um, in crypto, the novel primitive is tokens. So traditionally in conventional enterprise, the one technique of getting an exit and subsequently having capital return to the VC funds, which then trickles right down to the restricted companions, the buyers within the VC funds was if there was an M and a acquisition or an IPO, what’s novel about is that you can successfully obtain liquidity.
Far earlier in your organization’s life cycle sometimes like a collection b, which is while you would launch a token Now that clearly provides complexity. There is a purpose that loads of collection b firms do not have a dwell token value Related to them as a result of they’re nonetheless nascent. They’re nonetheless on the lookout for clients on the lookout for product market match However that’s form of the commerce off of crypto.
It is dwell. It is public earlier on um The general public can take part subsequently democratizing entry To a few of these startups. And so, um, yeah, as soon as these VCs exit the place, um, then they, uh, distribute capital again to their LPs. So. I am going to pause there. Hopefully that was a great fast overview. Clearly, I may discuss an hour in regards to the subject, however hopefully that covers it.
00:05:13
Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I believe all that, like, is smart. I believe what is basically the nitty gritties of the motivation buildings of the 2? What are each, what are the people who find themselves operating these? What are their incentive buildings? And the way do they function? As a result of that invests, uh, what their actions inform on the finish of the day.
00:05:32
Speaker # 1
Yeah, completely. I believe there’s areas wherein hedge funds and VC funds are much like each other after which different methods wherein incentives are completely different. So the methods wherein they’re comparable is that they sometimes have the identical price construction uh the place they cost a 2 % administration price after which a 20 % efficiency price.
That is base. Um, so 2 % administration, uh, is mainly how they pay their groups, how they pay for the software program, the journey, the issues they should do to execute on their technique. So, uh, 2 % of no matter they’ve a U. M. sometimes will get charged quarterly. Um, so 1 / 4 of two % will get charged every quarter.
Um. Then the 20 % incentive price or efficiency price, that is the place it barely, uh, is completely different. So on the hedge fund facet, incentive price or efficiency price, quote, crystallizes sometimes on an annual schedule. So say you invested 100 and on the finish of the 12 months, uh, after charges, uh, and the administration price, your 100 is now 200.
Meaning you’ve got made 100 {dollars} in revenue to your LO. On the finish of the 12 months, you’re then taking 20% of {that a} hundred {dollars} in revenue as your efficiency price. So now the worth of the LPs capital account is $180 going into the, the subsequent 12 months. So 2024, for instance. What’s fascinating say is that your, your worth of your account is $180 now, after which the crypto market dumps.
And it goes all the best way right down to the worth of your capital account is $80. You aren’t paying efficiency price, say on the finish of 2024, 2025, every time, till the worth of your capital account is above 180 once more. And that is known as a excessive watermark. So say the subsequent 12 months went from 80 to 120, you are not paying efficiency price there.
You might be solely paying if it goes above the best level that your capital account has ever hit. That is distinct, uh, for hedge funds. One other factor about hedge funds and their, um, and the way they’re structured, they’re known as open ended or evergreen automobiles. So that they sometimes absorb a subscription, um, month-to-month.
So you’d subscribe, say you are subscribing 100K. You are subscribing 100 Okay after which your capital is locked up for X period of time. It may very well be a 12 months. It may very well be, there may very well be no lockup. It may very well be three years. Every technique has a special lockup after which pending on the lockup, you possibly can redeem your capital, that means get all of your capital out.
Uh, or a fraction of your capital out primarily based on, you realize, as soon as you place in your redemption, it will take 1 / 4 to supply discover and then you definately’ll get your capital distributed again to you. That is a hedge fund construction. The enterprise fund construction, uh, sometimes follows a waterfall, uh, and it is barely completely different.
So say hedging a VC fund. It is a closed finish construction. So I am not being in every month. Slightly, I am saying I am elevating a ten million fund. As soon as I hit 10 million, no extra. New buyers can come into this fund. I’d elevate a brand new enterprise fund in a few years, however no new ones coming into this fund. Say I raised 10 million.
There’s sometimes what’s known as a capital name schedule. So you are having, uh, the GPs of this fund, both they’re, they’ve made it like a cadence, like each quarter, each six months, or possibly on a deal by deal foundation. As soon as they name capital. So say I subscribed 100 Okay. They could be like, we’re calling 30 % up entrance or we’re calling 10 % to make this funding into this seed stage firm.
And we predict it is an amazing alternative. So we’re calling 10%. I might then ship 10 % of my 100 Okay 10 Okay to the fund. They’d then make the funding. They then proceed to do this for a sure period of time, which is falls inside their funding interval, which is I might say sometimes three years.
So over three years, they’re calling the capital and inside that capital name included is the administration price, the two % that they are taking. And the bills. So that they, you realize, that comes out to about 2 % over a ten 12 months fund life. So, they’ve about 80 grand price of capital to deploy on behalf of me as a result of 20 Okay of that’s administration price and bills, and these are all simply tough numbers.
They’re then investing that for, um, three years after which after three years is the harvest interval. So that they have already positioned their bets. And possibly a few of their firms launch a token And it is dwell on CEXs and DEXs they select to exit a few of that place Um, possibly there’s an acquisition Possibly the corporate is like, uh, the subsequent coinbase and it goes public on the brand new york inventory alternate at that time They get liquidity after which they distribute that liquidity again to LPs after which Here is the place it is slightly tough, as a result of there may be a European waterfall, which is while you’re paying out your LPs again all of their cash earlier than you’re taking any efficiency charges.
So say I invested 100k, I receives a commission 100k again, after which with, say there’s the subsequent 100k, the GP would take 20k for the 20%, and the LP would get 80k. Then there is a U. S. Waterfall the place that 80 20 cut up of the efficiency price and capital getting distributed again begins at 1 1 versus after all of the capital has been returned.
It is getting slightly within the weeds, however that is the distinction between a European and American waterfall. Uh, simply one thing toe to be sure to ask GPs and the way they distribute. Um, the important thing metrics for enterprise are TV P I. Which usually it represents unrealized positive factors and DPI, which is realized achieve. So TVPI, say I spend money on a stage seed stage firm at a ten million valuation.
After which they elevate a monster collection. I had 100 million greenback valuation. That is a ten X TVPI say, then they’ve an exit at, uh, or say then, uh, the GP is like, we will promote a chunk of. Our funding into this fund to a progress stage or later stage downstream after which we will distribute that capital.
The capital they’re distributing again to the LPs is DPI. So say they returned. You realize, 50 % of the capital that the LPs had invested. So say they distributed again 5M out of a 10M fund. That will be a degree. 5 X DPI. So these are, uh, among the excessive stage metrics and simply basic, uh, incentive buildings, um, and the way each enterprise funds and hedge funds function.
00:12:59
Speaker #0
Excellent. That was actually useful. Now let’s form of get to the extra enjoyable half the place we have had, uh, the previous two years the place there’s been loads of exuberance, then a crash and the panorama has modified drastically in that point. So how have. Let’s begin with hedge funds. How have they fared? Um, all through the factor with their incentive buildings and their buyers and what kind of decisions have they made and what are the results of these decisions that they are going through now?
00:13:28
Speaker # 1
Yeah, uh, so much to cowl right here and There’s been completely different implications on completely different methods of hedge funds. So if first speaking about lengthy biased methods, these are funds that we’re allocating to Sol and D. Y. D. X. and G. M. X. and Eth. Lido, etcetera. These funds did exceptionally properly in 2021. And 2022 is a really difficult 12 months the place they had been sometimes down 60 to 80 % off their highs.
So if you happen to bear in mind about my, my earlier feedback a few excessive watermark and the way the motivation charges work at a hedge fund, say the worth of my capital account, I invested 100 Okay at first of 2021. Now I had 500 Okay I am feeling nice. Um, and now my 500k is again all the best way right down to 100k meaning the hedge funds one They’re managing much less aum.
So their administration charges the 2 % of no matter their aum is is decrease After which they might not see incentive price Till the subsequent time the worth of the capital accounts is above regardless of the excessive water markets. So I’ve seen quite a few funds that had been scaling pondering it was up solely endlessly that had been bringing on new members of their staff, uh, and, and similar to not likely defending to the draw back.
Who now have needed to lay individuals off or they only do not see a path wherein they’ll get again over Um their excessive water mark, so there’s virtually like a enterprise danger related to hedge funds And that is why we have seen loads of these lengthy bias hedge funds Battle as a result of they’ve a finite period of time the place they’ll pay all their salaries and all their burn With decrease aum and and not using a clear path to incomes incentive That is among the lengthy bias methods specializing in the extra low beta non directional arbitrage methods.
These funds had been doing exceptionally properly in a standard world. A market impartial hedge fund incomes 15 % web of all charges could be distinctive. In crypto with yield farming and all of the arbitrage that was accessible as a result of volatility and the funding charges um and the appearance of yield farming And and loads of retail participation, which is often much less refined.
It was very straightforward for these funds to generate 20 30 plus web efficiency charges, which is uh, distinctive, um, nonetheless with Retail washed out with TVL collapsing, low liquidity, low volatility. Quite a lot of these straightforward trades, uh, now not exist. And so now these funds that possibly, uh, raised loads of capital, have an excessive amount of capital to deploy into capability constrained methods.
So we’re additionally seeing quite a few these funds wrestle as there’s extra alternatives. Uh, as there’s extra capital coming into the market with the DTC spot ETF with, uh, you realize, uh, growing efficiencies with, uh, cross chain liquidity and AMMs like that, just like the DeFi world is coming. Um, and I believe this, just like the market impartial funds, uh, and even the lengthy bias funds going again to this class at the moment are doing significantly better in 2023, however it was a really robust highway, um, in 2022, um, given.
The entire funding challenges layer on prime of that all the operational challenges of needing to diligence your counterparties Cannot even let you know what number of funds misplaced capital, uh through genesis and ftx and will have gotten lumped into Luna and ust so that you must be always fascinated with your operations Um and in addition simply attempting to to search out alpha Um, so that is the hedge fund facet on the enterprise fund facet If you happen to take a look at the funds which can be among the stalwarts of the asset class at this time, they sometimes launched between 2016 and 2019.
They usually had been working funds hardly ever larger than 30 million. Most like multi coin one, I believe was 18 million. Uh, loads of these funds had been sub 20 million, even these funds, as a result of there was much less conviction amongst LPs. They. Acquired into among the main alternatives within the asset courses, um, or within the asset class and delivered distinctive returns.
10x, uh, TVPI with a few of them, um, returning, you realize, even 30, 40, 50, 60x TVPI with pending on how they, they took earnings, uh, over the previous couple of years, uh, their DPI was distinctive. And you do not actually see that in conventional enterprise. These are like unbelievable numbers that do not compute in a standard, uh, VCs thoughts.
Nonetheless, loads of these funds took their success. They invested, uh, their funds. So say they invested their whole 20 million fund. They had been doing properly. They’d good marks. They already had the relationships, the connectivity, the model and the asset class. After which when the market acquired tremendous sizzling and everybody needed to spend money on VC, they had been 5 instances over subscribed at a 300 million fund measurement.
So now, and a few of them scaled even bigger elevating funds North of a billion. So that they elevate these large funds after which the crypto market. After which they’re investing into the bull market when valuations are insanely excessive. Rounds are so aggressive there’s simply no diligence being achieved. Uh, they usually’re simply so aggressive so it’s important to overpay.
After which the market crashes and there is much less prime quality alternatives as a result of everybody’s form of licking their wounds. And it takes a short while for, uh, you realize, the comb of the forest fireplace to clear. Um, however now they’re struggling to generate returns, provided that the TAM of the crypto area presently is comparatively small.
So, these funds must both A, make investments into liquids, B, make investments into much more alternatives than, um, possibly they might in a typical, like, 40 deal fund, or C, they must mainly do these combo rounds, the place it is like, uh, they’re investing into the The precede seed and the collection a multi function verify simply because they’ve a lot dry powder to deploy they usually want to have the ability to put it to work into among the greatest offers.
And once more, there’s all the time a finite quantity of greatest offers. In any other case, they wish to be the most effective. Um, and so these are very aggressive and the costs get pushed up. I believe we’re nonetheless very early within the life cycle of those 2021 2022 2023. Vintages and the asset class will develop and the panorama for exits will enhance as there’s regulatory readability.
Because the M& A and IPO markets open up, um, because it’s simpler for tokens to launch on DEXs and CEXs. Um, so we’ll see how these funds do in the long term. Um, I personally, personally have an inclination in the direction of smaller managers. Uh, give attention to the sooner stage facet as I believe, uh, they’ve an edge whereas the market, uh, continues to be comparatively small
00:21:33
Speaker #0
For certain with the bigger telephones, which have like, uh, which elevate like multi hundred million greenback funds.
Like, he would not distinction is they do not even have that cash, however they’ve that cash dedicated to them by their LP. So, like, what’s the, there’s undoubtedly like an incentive right here the place. They needed to play all of that inside, say, three years. Proper. Um, and it is some level as a result of they’ve to boost the subsequent fund.
So how do you see that dynamic enjoying out? Proper? Is it such as you suppose possibly it is this 12 months or subsequent 12 months the place it is form of just like the final 12 months the place they have left to deploy. And as market turns round. There’s going to love push aggressively into new firm to begin elevating the subsequent one. Like, how do you see that dynamic enjoying out?
As a result of they cannot elevate the subsequent one till the depleted the final one.
00:22:20
Speaker # 1
Yeah, it is an amazing query. Um, I believe we noticed quite a few GPs that deployed approach too shortly and the LPs do not forget that. So first we noticed. Some funds benefit from the feverish alternative to boost capital in 2021. And they also deployed, you realize, in a short time, uh, possibly their 2020 or their 2021 fund.
After which they went to market in 2022. So LPs, do not forget that as a result of your job is to be disciplined and to ship returns, to not Elevate extra funds and acquire administration charges. So individuals, uh, you realize, are conscious of these funds that had been possibly set off completely happy. Um, one of many, the constructive, uh, ramifications of us being in a frigid fundraising atmosphere is that these funds understand that it will not be straightforward to boost subsequent capital.
Until they’ve confirmed themselves through being disciplined by driving TVPI by distributing capital again as DPI. And they also’re being far slower and extra discerning. So it is truly harder. After which that trickles right down to founders. So founders, you realize, it is tougher for them to boost as a result of the VCs are being slower.
They’re taking their time. They solely wish to make investments as soon as they really feel extremely convicted as a result of Proper now the cash they’ve is treasured they usually’re not attempting to must exit to market in a frigid crypto winter the place all allocators Uh, you realize, are possibly shifting with much less urgency into deploying into the asset class.
00:24:15
Speaker #0
Certainly. Yeah, it is, I imply, it is so unusual although, as a result of everybody turns into smart within the bear market after which each single time the bull market comes round and the teachings of the final bear market utterly exit the window. So it is like good to see, uh, that form of like warning being exercised, however it’s, it is all the time simply very cyclical and is a founder.
You are like, Oh, like there’s, there truly is due diligence that occurs in a bear market. However as quickly as you are in a bull market, all the pieces will get thrown out the window once more. Prefer it’s, uh, it is loopy how cyclical it performs out. However, um, by way of like, if you happen to’re an LP, what are issues try to be looking for when, uh, you are evaluating the place to place your cash in both right into a enterprise fund or hedge fund?
What are the form of metrics, benchmarks, um, could be good to get some numbers when you’ve got any?
00:25:08
Speaker # 1
Yeah, I might say it one it it first depends upon what your targets are if you would like like With hedge funds you are getting your capital assertion is marked to market each month. So that you’re coping with uh, stomaching the volatility of Up and down and up and down and up and down and having to possibly pay quick time period positive factors when you’re nonetheless beneath your lockup Um, so it actually depends upon you realize What your targets are if you happen to already possibly you personal btc and eth possibly you wish to allocate to a fund that will get you publicity To various kinds of tokens since you do not wish to must do the work of managing that token guide your self Um, possibly you need a safer, uh, that with like a extra market impartial fund, or possibly you need long run enterprise publicity that you simply simply contemplate this an allocation to blockchain expertise, um, versus just like the dwell liquid tokens, um, issues to look out for and metrics, you realize, clearly on the enterprise facet.
TVPI, DPI on historic investments is important. I believe common possession measurement of, uh, offers that they are doing, are they main, are they observe on verify? What number of offers they’re doing per 12 months, per quarter, no matter it’s. Have they got, um, a observe document of creating good investments, uh, and, and growing relationships with founders throughout the thesis, uh, that they are attempting to precise with that fund.
Um, so, you realize, there’s, there’s infinite issues. First, that you must do all of the ODD, uh, the operational due diligence simply to guarantee that. They don’t seem to be going to, to lose your capital through, uh, amateurish, uh, money administration or, uh, or counter celebration, uh, administration. Um, and have they got the fitting danger administration, um, etcetera, however on the funding due diligence facet, I might say it is like, you realize, once more, what are you going for earlier stage is riskier, however that is additionally has a better potential.
So have they got guidelines in place for. Exiting positions as soon as there is a collection a or collection b. Do they take 3x or 30 % of the capital as soon as there is a 3x? Have they got guidelines in place? How are they planning on managing liquid tokens as a enterprise fund supervisor? Are you presupposed to you realize time markets? Are you presupposed to um, and since liquid tokens are very delicate to Total, uh, market dynamics or is your job to search out good innovation?
So I do know some enterprise fund managers who desires a there is a token era mattress They promote all their their place. They’re like that is not our job anymore. We took the corporate from precede to Collection b and um, you realize now we’re out um These are some issues to search for it is exhausting to essentially say on the enterprise facet like uncooked metrics to take a look at moreover um TDPI DPI possession percentages um offers led um variety of firms that % of firms that elevate one other spherical and that is indicative of, uh, portfolio help, um, on prime of the operational due diligence.
Enterprise simply occurs to be slightly bit extra squishy. What’s their fame? You are going to get, uh, skilled references. They are going to introduce you to the founders that like them, however how in regards to the founders that they do not just like the VC that invested in them, that you simply’re diligencing them. And, you realize, you also needs to be speaking to different Founders within the area who possibly had been speaking to that VC and selected to not take a verify for them.
So it is essential to gauge the fame of those GPs and these groups and whether or not, um, you realize, they’re, they’re revered in by founders by way of understanding what’s being constructed on the leading edge, uh, in addition to truly supporting them as soon as they make the funding. The hedge fund facet, there’s much more knowledge as a result of there’s.
Month-to-month observe document versus in enterprise. You are simply ready for quarterly marks Um until and until there is a dwell liquid token, you are beholden to regardless of the spherical is um the place the final spherical is, um However on the hedge fund facet, there’s month-to-month efficiency updates with nav primarily based on the worth of The capital accounts primarily based on the dwell liquid token value.
So it’s miles simpler to discern Monitor document and once more, like what are your targets? Would you like one thing larger beta? Uh to bitcoin and the general digital asset market Or do you wish to be extra protecting and nonetheless seize 80 % of a transfer? Um, would you like one thing that is uh has a excessive sharp ratio?
Um, and decrease volatility. It is, it is form of all as much as you. Um, I believe additionally on the hedge fund facet, it is essential to suppose via the enterprise danger of those hedge funds. Um, how lengthy can they proceed to function with out efficiency price? Um, and with low administration charges. Um, after which one factor I believe that is essential is like, I all the time ask, like, when will this technique expertise alpha decay?
Like, when, when, how a lot capital, um, are you able to deploy into your current methods? How do you concentrate on exiting your investments? Um, if you happen to’re extra lengthy bias and the liquidity of the market, how are you fascinated with hedging, leveraging derivatives, like, you realize, the choices and, uh, and derivatives platforms on chain and off-chain?
are undoubtedly far much less refined than conventional markets. So, like, I believe there’s operational, um, premia in hedge funds on the crypto facet, as a result of if you happen to’re, when you’ve got a staff that, you realize, possibly has glorious buying and selling infrastructure in place, That is an edge. If you happen to’re onboarded with all these completely different exchanges and you’ve got a considerate, uh, properly constructed option to transfer cash on and off exchanges far sooner than anybody else, you realize, that is a bonus.
As a result of subsequent time when there’s an FTX or a Luna, you are capable of get your capital off and, uh, the subsequent competitor is slower, cannot. Or possibly you are, you are onboarded with a chief dealer, so that you’re, you have got insurance coverage or no matter it could be. So there’s all these various factors. Diligencing hedge funds is a, um, a fancy endeavor.
Uh, extra so, I believe, than diligencing enterprise funds. However I additionally suppose that is why there’s extra apparent knowledge to research. The enterprise funds, it is simpler on the floor stage, however then at a deeper stage, since you have got much less Knowledge accessible to you as a result of the long run nature of how these funds are structured, that you must actually dig into the extra squishy, which reputations.
Caliber of staff and thought management, uh, etcetera.
00:32:45
Speaker #0
Yeah. Wow. No, that was actually useful. And yeah, form of provides you, you do not actually hear about this facet of, I suppose the crypto world, trigger these individuals aren’t on Twitter tweeting about it on a regular basis and all the pieces that they do. Um, so, uh, actually recognize this type of dialogue.
Earlier than we wrap up, is there the rest that you simply’d like to inform the viewers, um, that they suppose they need to know or a bit extra about what you are doing? Uh, be at liberty to, uh, leap in.
00:33:14
Speaker # 1
Yeah. Nicely, first off, Kerman, thanks for, for having me. I have been following your substack for like three years now, and it is one of many prime, um, substacks within the area.
So go forward to, uh, to have kindled and, and, you realize, turn out to be pals and get this podcast. Uh, up within the air. Um, for people who, you realize, observe me on Twitter, uh, NAP Jacobs, I additionally host a podcast known as Scenius Studio, the place I interview GPs of crypto hedge funds and crypto VC funds. So for lengthy type conversations with these GPs, try Scenius Studio.
We’re dwell on Spotify and Apple. We even have a substack Scenius Capital at substack.com after which be at liberty if you happen to ever wish to discuss in regards to the asset administration business, I am all the time accessible. Love chatting with, uh, with people and assembly new individuals. You’ll be able to e mail me at Ben at scenius dot capital. S. C. E. N. I. U. S. dot capital.
00:34:18
Speaker #0
Excellent. I am going to embody the hyperlinks in, uh, the present notes above. So, yeah however thanks a lot for leaping on at this time, Ben.
00:34:27
Speaker # 1
Superior. Thanks for having me. That is nice.
